The official DCA Expansion Thread!

[echoscot]

^Exactly, the title of a book has to be good and grab your attention, but it ALSO has to have substance once you open the cover.

If the title isn't good, then you will have a difficult time getting people to read the book, no matter how great the story is.

It is an age old concept called "following through". If you are familiar with sports especially baseball and softball, if you don't follow through with the swing of the bat you won't hit a home run.

So in the case of a theme park, the idea of follow through works when you have a GREAT NAME and a GREAT IDEA, then you put GREAT SUBSTANCE behind it....

DCA had difficulty because the "follow through" didn't work. It never seemed like a whole package.

[tomserwin]

^ I guess... but then again, I don't know. The Heart of Darkness is a cool name but a terrible book. Conrad should be ashamed. Some books have boring names but great stories. I know it sounds cliche but I don't judge books by their cover. Whether or not I will read a book has nothing to do with the book's title. A book's jacket means nothing. To choose a book simply because of it's cover is shallow.

I really don't care what the park is named. All I care about is whether it has a soul. IF the park isn't "alive" then it's no good. Right now, DCA is near dead.

[Pinocchio85]

Originally Posted by magoo2525

..Uh, Technically, Jack Sparrow is in New Orleans Square....but I digress...

I guess this means you want to keep the discussion going??

OK then...

I agree that "Theme" parks build rides around their particular "Theme" (That goes without saying). What I said (yet again) is that the rides in DCA would have been successful regardless of the "California Theme". I also said that the "California Experience" Theme was a bad theme because people wanted two things out of a Disney Park....Characters and Attractions. I stand by that statement.

The remodel is bringing more characters and new Attractions. Disney has listened to the masses...and in some cases, listened to the silence of people not visiting DCA.

I was referring to the Jack Sparrow theming of Tom Sawyer Island. The island is still part of Frontierland which is supposed to be about American south in the 1830's. Jack Sparrow and Co. are completely out of place.

There's no factual evidence that people only want characters in DCA. This is such a cop out and an excuse to let Disney put rides in wherever they want regardless of theming. What is factual is that in recent years Disney has only wanted to market their characters. That's why you don't see original stuff anymore. Everything has to promote some Disney film.

It's not about what guests want, it's about marketing.

[tomserwin]

^Yup, now-a-days Disney is pure marketing. That's no secret. A lot of things in DCA that are character based have nothing to do with the theme.

I would also like to add that characters have very, very little to do with my Disney experience. Attractions? Yes. Characters? No. I have no emotional attachments to any Disney character, not even Mickey. The only character that I care about is Indiana Jones, who isn't really a Disney character. If they never had another character walk around the park in costume I would even care, or probably notice.

[Clrntfrk777]

So yea talkin' about whether people would like DL or DCA better, our school marching band had the choice to march a parade in DCA or DL, and each person (122 people total) voted, and the Disneyland side won by 1 person, so you can tell that a lot of people would rather go for the thrills at DCA than the history and detail of DL, and also because our band's been 2 DL already and all the seniors wanted to go to DCA (12 of them)

[magoo2525]

Originally Posted by Pinocchio85

There's no factual evidence that people only want characters in DCA. This is such a cop out and an excuse to let Disney put rides in wherever they want regardless of theming. What is factual is that in recent years Disney has only wanted to market their characters. That's why you don't see original stuff anymore. Everything has to promote some Disney film.

It's not about what guests want, it's about marketing.

I don't have to make an excuse for Disney to do anything they want to do with their parks!!

But what I said was that people want TWO THINGS!!!! NOT JUST CHARACTERS!! They want CHARACTERS AND ATTRACTIONS!!! So for the last time, if you're going to quote me... PLEASE get it right!!

And if you want to talk about facts...

People are not going to DCA for much beyond Soarin', Screamin', GRR, and TOT! Otherwise, the park would be shoulder to shoulder like DL is! (FACT)

People LIKE Disney and Disney/Pixar Movies! (FACT)

An old ride that you used to be able to get on in a matter of minutes, now can take up to TWO HOURS to ride because they added a clownfish named Nemo! (FACT)

DCA is expanding and needed a new area for guests to visit! Radiator Springs is born! (FACT)


...so what's wrong with Disney promoting their characters and movies?? Some people don't have any sort of attachment to Mickey, Donald, and Goofy....no problem. but many DO!! It's not just about going on the rides for them. It's about visiting a part of their childhood and sharing it with others! To them, (Me Included), Mickey and the others are like old friends! ...and THAT'S A FACT!!!

You bet its about marketing!! That's where the money is made! But tell me...
Who is Disneyland marketing to?? Isn't it their GUESTS??? If you don't cater to your base customer, you lose business! The Base Customer is...KIDS and FAMILIES!!!

[CostaFreak]

^ Yes, but when they start making attractions that are completly going away from the theme and only focusing on characters, there's a problem, a big one which if they actually take their time to create something amazing instead of steering off course.

For example, look at Tokyo DisneySea. Yes, it doesn't focus alot on characters. Hell, I could even say that it's aimed for a slightly older audience, but why is it so successful? All you need for a great park is, as said, an excellent idea for a park mixed with great attractions into it and theming that follows the park's plan, and just a sprinkle and light touch of characters (not a complete devotion to them), and your done. What they should be doing is following that example.

To be honest, I don't want to be the one to gloat, but there is, I think, only one way to fix DCA's problem by theming it to something else, a certain theme, that failed 13 years ago in Virginia but it might be time for it to ressurect.

[disneygeek06]

^Well that all that all depends what exactly are you talking about?

[magoo2525]

Originally Posted by CostaFreak

^ Yes, but when they start making attractions that are completly going away from the theme and only focusing on characters, there's a problem, a big one which if they actually take their time to create something amazing instead of steering off course.

For example, look at Tokyo DisneySea. Yes, it doesn't focus alot on characters. Hell, I could even say that it's aimed for a slightly older audience, but why is it so successful? All you need for a great park is, as said, an excellent idea for a park mixed with great attractions into it and theming that follows the park's plan, and just a sprinkle and light touch of characters (not a complete devotion to them), and your done. What they should be doing is following that example.

I'm not so sure that Radiator Springs is a steer off course. It's an entirely new area with a "theme" that the attractions will be in line with. People like the characters from CARS. My intention was to repeat an earlier comment I made about how in the beginning, DCA had NO characters at all! And people were turned off to the fact that DCA had little to do with what was considered "Disney".

I do believe though, that New Attractions need to be placed in DCA that are exclusive to only that park! I'm afraid that the Radiator Springs Racers in Radiator Springs will be a knock-off of the Test Track at WDW!

But DCA is being renovated because people didn't care about the "California History/Heritage" theme. People wanted 1) Characters, and 2) Attractions.

[Pinocchio85]

Originally Posted by magoo2525

I don't have to make an excuse for Disney to do anything they want to do with their parks!!

But what I said was that people want TWO THINGS!!!! NOT JUST CHARACTERS!! They want CHARACTERS AND ATTRACTIONS!!! So for the last time, if you're going to quote me... PLEASE get it right!!

And if you want to talk about facts...

People are not going to DCA for much beyond Soarin', Screamin', GRR, and TOT! Otherwise, the park would be shoulder to shoulder like DL is! (FACT)

People LIKE Disney and Disney/Pixar Movies! (FACT)

An old ride that you used to be able to get on in a matter of minutes, now can take up to TWO HOURS to ride because they added a clownfish named Nemo! (FACT)

DCA is expanding and needed a new area for guests to visit! Radiator Springs is born! (FACT)


...so what's wrong with Disney promoting their characters and movies?? Some people don't have any sort of attachment to Mickey, Donald, and Goofy....no problem. but many DO!! It's not just about going on the rides for them. It's about visiting a part of their childhood and sharing it with others! To them, (Me Included), Mickey and the others are like old friends! ...and THAT'S A FACT!!!

You bet its about marketing!! That's where the money is made! But tell me...
Who is Disneyland marketing to?? Isn't it their GUESTS??? If you don't cater to your base customer, you lose business! The Base Customer is...KIDS and FAMILIES!!!

I did not misquote you.

There's no way that any 6 year old park would be shoulder to shoulder with a 52 year old park. It takes time to build up an attraction roster and nostalgia and memories for guests.

The comparison between the original Subs and the new Subs isn't fair. The ride was nearly 50 years old when it closed with no update in years so of course it won't have a long wait. The Subs just re-opened so of course it's going to have a long wait. Let's wait 40 years then you can fairly compare the two.

What's wrong with Disney marketing their characters.? When it is done in excess it becomes bad. Now they are only doing character based rides. There's no variety in new attractions. Also, they are ruining the established themes by putting these rides where they don't belong. Having cohesively themed lands was the principle that Disney parks were founded upon. The company is destroying what made the place popular in the first place. That's not good.

I would strongly argue that their audience is not just families with children. Disney parks are supposed to be for everybody. They are only catering to kids these days and they are going to start loosing groups like teens and the elderly who want to do other things than just cartoon rides. Six Flags isn't making it because they are only catering to one group. Disney parks were built to have something for everybody.

[Pinocchio85]

Originally Posted by magoo2525

I'm not so sure that Radiator Springs is a steer off course. It's an entirely new area with a "theme" that the attractions will be in line with. People like the characters from CARS. My intention was to repeat an earlier comment I made about how in the beginning, DCA had NO characters at all! And people were turned off to the fact that DCA had little to do with what was considered "Disney".

I do believe though, that New Attractions need to be placed in DCA that are exclusive to only that park! I'm afraid that the Radiator Springs Racers in Radiator Springs will be a knock-off of the Test Track at WDW!

But DCA is being renovated because people didn't care about the "California History/Heritage" theme. People wanted 1) Characters, and 2) Attractions.

DCA had characters from Day 1 and what's considered "Disney" does not necessarily equal characters.

It's not that people didn't care about the California theme. It's about Disney not caring about anything but marketing their characters. It's obvious that they don't care about themes anymore.

If people didn't care about the California theme then why is Disney enhancing the California theming in some areas of the park?

[PeoplemoverMatt]

Originally Posted by magoo2525

But what I said was that people want TWO THINGS!!!! NOT JUST CHARACTERS!! They want CHARACTERS AND ATTRACTIONS!!!

What people want is immersion. Characters walking around that you can touch, feel, hug, take a photo with, wave at, etc works wonders in creating immersion. Suddenly you're not watching them on a TV screen or a book's page, you're now interacting with them yourself. Same goes for attractions. Suddenly now you're in the adventure that you were merely watching on a TV or movie screen, or in a book.

That immersion is what people are looking for, but it will only go as far as how good your story is. That is where DCA fails the most. Its themes, while not completely ludicrious, are weak. They are weak in their substance. They are weak in their presentation. They are weak in their immersion. People do not feel anywhere close to as immersed in DCA as they do in Disneyland.

Does that mean the CA theme fails? No. The idea isn't a failure. If the substance, presentation and overall immersion of the CA themes are improved, then DCA will do fine.

Sure characters & attractions are ingredients of immersion, but they aren't the whole receipe. And even once all the ingredients are together, they still must be mixed together properly to ensure the correct outcome. That's what we have to watch for in this coming project. Are they adding the correct ingredients? Are they mixing it properly to ensure the desired immersion? Only time will tell that.

Originally Posted by magoo2525

And if you want to talk about facts...

People are not going to DCA for much beyond Soarin', Screamin', GRR, and TOT! Otherwise, the park would be shoulder to shoulder like DL is! (FACT)

Not sure what you mean here. Otherwise, what?

An old ride that you used to be able to get on in a matter of minutes, now can take up to TWO HOURS to ride because they added a clownfish named Nemo! (FACT)

Not quite. In the middle of the day, the line for the Sub Voyage used to take a good long while due to small capacity. Today, it still takes a good long while, because of the small capacity. And in the case of the Subs, even now the lines are more due to the fact the Subs are the 'new ride' and people always want to do what's new over anything else. It'll take a good year before that cycles itself out.

Originally Posted by magoo2525

I'm not so sure that Radiator Springs is a steer off course. It's an entirely new area with a "theme" that the attractions will be in line with. People like the characters from CARS. My intention was to repeat an earlier comment I made about how in the beginning, DCA had NO characters at all! And people were turned off to the fact that DCA had little to do with what was considered "Disney".

I do believe though, that New Attractions need to be placed in DCA that are exclusive to only that park! I'm afraid that the Radiator Springs Racers in Radiator Springs will be a knock-off of the Test Track at WDW!

Yeah it will be similar to Test Track, but there aren't a lot of people who visit Disneyland who're even aware of what Test Track is or that it exists. The vast majority of people who visit Disneyland walk in and have no idea of what they're going to find. They only learn about things like FastPass or PhotoPass or what's new/different from their last visit by actually visiting the park itself.

These are the people the marketing is directed at, because the marketing is the only way those people know about what's going on. When Cars Land does open, that marketing won't make any mention of Test Track at all. Radiator Springs Racers won't have an original system, but 75% of its riders won't realize it.

Originally Posted by Pinocchio85

DCA had characters from Day 1 and what's considered "Disney" does not necessarily equal characters.

It's not that people didn't care about the California theme. It's about Disney not caring about anything but marketing their characters. It's obvious that they don't care about themes anymore.

If people didn't care about the California theme then why is Disney enhancing the California theming in some areas of the park?

This is what I'm talking about about mixing the ingredients together to achieve the desired outcome. It's not easy. Characters, attractions, themeing, ambience, it all has to be there in the proper quantites and interwoven in a certain way. Otherwise, it won't come out right. What people call the 'Disney magic' is what happens when those ingredients are successfully brought together to create an immersive experience that parents & children can enjoy together.

That's what they're after with this project. So you'll see some theme-enhancements here, some new attractions there, some increased character exposure here & there, etc. The goal is immersion.

DCA didn't get it right at all at first, and hasn't gotten it right since. I'd love to believe they're going to get it right this time, but so far I've read/seen nothing to make me believe that hardly anything has changed. I fear they still don't get it, and this time they're going to blow $1 Billion not getting it.

-- PMM

[nortonkids4]

Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt

What people want is immersion. Characters walking around that you can touch, feel, hug, take a photo with, wave at, etc works wonders in creating immersion. Suddenly you're not watching them on a TV screen or a book's page, you're now interacting with them yourself. Same goes for attractions. Suddenly now you're in the adventure that you were merely watching on a TV or movie screen, or in a book.

That immersion is what people are looking for, but it will only go as far as how good your story is. That is where DCA fails the most. Its themes, while not completely ludicrious, are weak. They are weak in their substance. They are weak in their presentation. They are weak in their immersion. People do not feel anywhere close to as immersed in DCA as they do in Disneyland.

Does that mean the CA theme fails? No. The idea isn't a failure. If the substance, presentation and overall immersion of the CA themes are improved, then DCA will do fine.

Sure characters & attractions are ingredients of immersion, but they aren't the whole receipe. And even once all the ingredients are together, they still must be mixed together properly to ensure the correct outcome. That's what we have to watch for in this coming project. Are they adding the correct ingredients? Are they mixing it properly to ensure the desired immersion? Only time will tell that.

Exactly! While some parts of DCA are neat and different (and I do honestly enjoy DCA), some parts feel like you're walking into an open area with some shops and rides and it doesn't feel "disney". The CA may have worked, and may still work, as long as guests are immersed in the park and with the themeing.

As to the whole character vs. attraction debate, there must be original attractions or else there would be no reason to go to DCA when you can go to DL, but I do agree that characters are an important part to the "disney magic." When you're walking through the park, it is always fun to see Donald, Snow White, or if you're really lucky Mickey Mouse walk by. Also, while original rides are really great and are the favorite of many (myself included) you can't pretend character rides aren't popular. Go to Fantasy Land and tell me those movie/character rides aren't popular. Heck, Peter Pan has one of the longest lines! So, there is a need for them, but DL wouldn't be the same if it was one huge Fantasy Land would it? AND, where would DL be without Fantasy Land? I think the main question that Matt stated also is what is that magic mix of the movies and what many assocate with Disney and original attraction? Once DCA finds that, it will do great!

[magoo2525]

Originally Posted by PeoplemoverMatt

That's what they're after with this project. So you'll see some theme-enhancements here, some new attractions there, some increased character exposure here & there, etc. The goal is immersion.

DCA didn't get it right at all at first, and hasn't gotten it right since. I'd love to believe they're going to get it right this time, but so far I've read/seen nothing to make me believe that hardly anything has changed. I fear they still don't get it, and this time they're going to blow $1 Billion not getting it.

-- PMM

THIS is what I've been trying to say!!!!!!

Look, I ENJOY going to DCA!!! But I also believe that a change has been needed for sometime. Hopefully, the changes that are in place will be an improvement over the current theme.

...Immersion...I like that word.....


And Pinocchio... you did misquote me...

Here's what I said...

"I agree that "Theme" parks build rides around their particular "Theme" (That goes without saying). What I said (yet again) is that the rides in DCA would have been successful regardless of the "California Theme". I also said that the "California Experience" Theme was a bad theme because people wanted two things out of a Disney Park....Characters and Attractions. I stand by that statement."

And here's your reply...

"There's no factual evidence that people only want characters in DCA. This is such a cop out and an excuse to let Disney put rides in wherever they want regardless of theming. What is factual is that in recent years Disney has only wanted to market their characters. That's why you don't see original stuff anymore. Everything has to promote some Disney film."

Did I say ONLY characters??

Looks like a misquote to me.

Plus...

I said...

"You bet its about marketing!! That's where the money is made! But tell me...
Who is Disneyland marketing to?? Isn't it their GUESTS??? If you don't cater to your base customer, you lose business! The Base Customer is...KIDS and FAMILIES!!!"

You said...

"I would strongly argue that their audience is not just families with children. Disney parks are supposed to be for everybody. They are only catering to kids these days and they are going to start loosing groups like teens and the elderly who want to do other things than just cartoon rides."

"Base" audience is not "ENTIRE" audience. The Base Audience is the TARGET audience. While other groups (Teens/Elderly) are addressed, the main group that the Park (DLR) is trying to satisfy is the "Kids/Family" audience. DCA was supposed to be more adult oriented...

...But I will take back what I've said about the I shouldn't compare "The Original" to "Nemo" until some time has passed.