WDW security accused of racial profiling

[Tom Morrow]

Walt Disney World security accused of racial profiling




Disney accused of profiling black teens (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-mdizfollow2707jun27,0,6436176.story)
4 FSU prospects ejected for loitering, refusing to leave, parks spokeswoman counters
Orlando Sentinel - FL

Walt Disney World ejected four of Florida State University's top football prospects from Downtown Disney last weekend under its anti-gang, no-loitering policy. The four, including the son of a Disney manager and the son of a Philadelphia civil-rights lawyer, were banned for life from Disney World property late Friday. A Disney spokeswoman said the youths were expelled because they had been loitering for an extended period and refused to leave when Disney security told them to.

Parents of the youths wonder whether there's another reason: They're black.

"I keep thinking to myself, 'This is crazy,' " said Mark Nugent, stepfather of Vincent Williams, football star at Ridge Community High School in Polk County. "Once they realized they weren't gangbangers, why didn't they let them go? They took their pictures. They fingerprinted them. And treated them like common criminals."

Because of concerns about a rise in ganglike activity at Downtown Disney lately, loitering or "any other inappropriate behavior" by groups of youths is not going to be tolerated, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said Tuesday. "This group was seen loitering for an extended period of time," she said. "When asked, sometime after 11:30, they produced a movie ticket for a film that had already started sometime earlier. Security asked them to go to the movie or leave, and they failed to cooperate."

Philadelphia attorney Adrian J. Moody, father of one of the players, said he thinks his son was a victim of racial profiling. "Why else would they follow them for an hour and a half to two hours?" said Moody, whose son, Nickolas Moody, listed on the police report as Nickolas Cannon, plays safety for Roman Catholic High School in Philadelphia. "And how can you trespass someone in Downtown Disney for walking around? I've been there before, and that's why it's there."
complete article (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-mdizfollow2707jun27,0,6436176.story)




Sent from Ezra (http://www.visionsfantastic.com/forum/z/Ezra/)

[PeoplemoverMatt]

*sigh* This case already exists because of stupidity, and now it's going to get even stupider.

First let me voice my concerns over the racial aspect of this particular story and how that pertains to our discussion here. Let's all just do what we can to keep things civil, eh?

Secondly this racial profiling excuse is totally bogus. WDW property has rules, just like any other place that is privately owned. When you fail to obey those rules and security employed by the ownership enforces the consequences, they have a reason, in this case, loitering. And if you defy the security, as the Disney spokeswoman claims, then you're just asking for more consequences to come down on you. In this case, it was a ban for life. Owners of private property ALWAYS have the right to refuse service and/or ban from their premises whoever they deem fit to eject.

"I keep thinking to myself, 'This is crazy,' " said Mark Nugent, stepfather of Vincent Williams, football star at Ridge Community High School in Polk County. "Once they realized they weren't gangbangers, why didn't they let them go? They took their pictures. They fingerprinted them. And treated them like common criminals."

They didn't let them go because they were caught loitering, a violation of FL state law, and they refused to comply with the security officers. 'Being a gangbanger' is no grounds for anyone to be held, but breaking a law is. This man needs to brush up on what's an arrestable offense, and what isn't. They weren't arrested because they looked like gangbangers, they were held because they were loitering. So they weren't released upon discovery that they weren't gangbangers because that's not why they were held. Why that's hard to understand, I'm not sure.

Because of concerns about a rise in ganglike activity at Downtown Disney lately, loitering or "any other inappropriate behavior" by groups of youths is not going to be tolerated, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said Tuesday. "This group was seen loitering for an extended period of time," she said. "When asked, sometime after 11:30, they produced a movie ticket for a film that had already started sometime earlier. Security asked them to go to the movie or leave, and they failed to cooperate."

I've bolded exactly why they were caught for loitering and then why they were processed and ejected from the premises.

Security's giving them every out in the world and these teens are shoving it back in the security's collective faces. Now how dumb is that? And now the parents think there's racial motives for the ejection? Give me a break. If the security really was racially motivated, they wouldn't have even given the group the chance to go the movie. Such a ridculous claim.

Philadelphia attorney Adrian J. Moody, father of one of the players, said he thinks his son was a victim of racial profiling. "Why else would they follow them for an hour and a half to two hours?" said Moody, whose son, Nickolas Moody, listed on the police report as Nickolas Cannon, plays safety for Roman Catholic High School in Philadelphia. "And how can you trespass someone in Downtown Disney for walking around? I've been there before, and that's why it's there."

This guy's an attorney? Wow. I sure wouldn't hire him. First of all, he operates on the pre-conceived notion that the security officers (whom I guess we're led to believe are white although their race isn't mentioned) are racially motivated and not there to enforce DtD Rules & Reg's, even though they are. Secondly, they were ejected for loitering, not trespassing. Third, and this makes me chuckle, they weren't ejected for 'walking around', they weren't moving at all, which is the basic definiton of loitering. Frankly, I'd expect more common sense from a lawyer to know what is and what isn't.

Now as for the rest of the article...

Orange County deputy sheriffs have issued at least 48 trespass warnings at Downtown Disney during the past two weekends since the push against loitering began. Records of those cases provided to the Orlando Sentinel show that 45 of the 46 people banned from Disney for life during the past two weekends were blacks or Hispanics.

Three cases involved white teens. Of those, two were banned only from the Virgin Megastore and are free to return anytime to Disney.

So this is relevant...why? I really hope this isn't the author trying to spin facts to paint the security officers as racial profilers. This is circumstantial statistics in its pure form. It wouldn't stand up in a court, so why should it have any grounds in the court of public opinions? Could this have happened because the ones committing ban-worth offenses happened to be members of those races? I mean come on, unless there's some evidence of unequal treatment, which the article cites none of, pointing out stats like that is unproductive and makes me wonder about the motives of both the author and the Orlando Sentinel itself.

At one point, the teens tried to enter the Pleasure Island complex of nightclubs after 11 p.m. when entry switches to those 21 and older. They declined to go to the movies as suggested and said they were at Downtown Disney to pick up girls, Krantz said he was told.

From his own observations, he said, the athletes were not aggressive or rude, but he understood that at least one made "kind of smart remarks" to Disney security.

Stupid moves here. If they went to the movies, no problems, but instead they chose to mouth off at the security. Mouthing off at any authority never ends well for the one(s) doing the mouthing off.

At one point, they asked why no Puerto Rican or white teens were being asked to leave, Krantz said. Then, a white teen and a Hispanic teen were brought in, and all the teens started slapping "high-fives" and joking, he said.

McCray, a 6-foot-2-inch, 268-pound defensive tackle, said the group had been sitting on a bench after leaving Pleasure Island when a number of security guards and deputies approached them. That's when he left, he said.

Friends were 'just chilling,' teen says

Commack said he and his friends were "just chilling together" at Downtown Disney and that they thought they were followed "because we were a group of black kids they assumed were out to make trouble."

Well of course they'd say something like that. Because they say it hardly makes it true. They're the ones facing consequences, and no one likes facing consequences, so they're acting like children trying to talk their way out of it. In the process unfortuantely by screaming race race race, they're going to do a lot more damage to themselves and possibly others related in the case than what would have happened had they just done what the security guards told them to do. But no, that wasn't good enough, they had show their macho-ness and defy security, and that almost always ends badly.

Just goes to show ya, Forrest Gump was right, stupid is as stupid does.

-- PMM :cool:

[ryguy222]

^Well said matt, I agree that this isn't racial profiling. The three white guys who got banned may not of done such wrong, if those football players were talking back at authorities, and refusing to leave then of course they will get a worse punishment. I don't know what those three guys were doing but it must not of been as bad.

[Executioner]

At the same time.... Isn't Downtown Disney then just a Catch 22? I mean... Why have benches and such for sitting and also be a place for gathering, hanging out, shopping and what have you, inviting the public to come and do all this for entertainment just to turn around and say "Bad People" "Your Loitering". So if I was to go there and I bought something just like they did, not necessarily a movie ticket but maybe a juice from a stand, go sit on a bench for a while cause I want to enjoy the sites and sounds seeing people have fun. I am now loitering. Am I not right? So what is the time limit for sitting on a bench or standing in one spot before it's called loitering? Technically, if I stepped foot out of a store after purchasing a nice Mickey picture frame, stopped to look at my watch and then look around to figure what I wanted to do next, I am loitering. Even though I might have only taken 1 minute of time to do so. So should I be banned from Disney for life? I think they are being a little extreme. Also, isn't it loitering if I am walking up and down the DtD District and not buying anything, just enjoying the sights and window shopping? Should I be banned for life because I haven't made a purchase and am not causing any harm to someone? I do agree the teens could have cooperated when said to move along. They were defiant in that and that was wrong. But I do believe the Sheriff, Police and Disney need to lighten up. I know they are trying to keep the place safe and fun, which I am thankful for. But I don't want to go there and feel I have to hurry from location to location so I won't be considered a "Loiterer" and get banned for life by Disney. I might be taking this a little extreme, but that is the way the article reads they are doing there. Or the writer of said article is playing up the whole thing to make it sound worse than it is, could very well be. Either way, I don't have the warm fuzzy feeling about wanting to visit there because of it.

[ryguy222]

^Right, walking around for a few minutes isn't loitering, but these guys were there for a few hours, big difference. I do agree tho the banned for life thing is a bit outragess.

[tomserwin]

You see, this is why I hate people. No one in our society wants to take responsibility for their actions. Instead, everyone wants to blame someone else. The worst part is that people are are willing to cater to that kind of attitude. I doubt that of all places, WDW is a racist hotspot. It feels like if you are black (or really of any minority) in America that automatically makes you a victim because you're not white. But basically what I'm getting at is: Being black is not a justifiable excuse for these youths to be kicked out of the park. No Disney employee is going to say, "Hey, let's kick the black kids out!" Obviously, they must have been doing something wrong for the security to take such action. This "Not-My-Kid" attitude has to go. Despite all the four letter words I have for the parents, all I will say is that the parents have to face the facts that their kids are poorly behaved and deserved the treatment that they got.

[Disneyknight467]

Also, If you're going to Downtown Disney to have a good time then you probably need to do something rather than just sit around. Yeah its ok to look at something, or rest for a couple of minutes on a bench or use your laptop or something but for 1 or 2 hours? You might as well go to a restraunt and have something to eat inside if you're doing that. And I highly doubt if you hang out with your friends all you'd do was chat on a bench, you'd probably go to see a movie or go grab a bite to eat, Ergo you can eat and talk in the restraunt and not have anything to do.

[CoryTheRaven]

This is making me think back to my trip to LA and how I suddenly found myself understanding why the Disneyphiles I know from there are so vibrant in their love for the park as a physical place. Of course there are the philosophical reasons - the fantasy, the romance, the air of Disney and imagination, etc. - but there was one really significant, it seemed, physical reason. That is, the Disney resort seemed like one of the only meaningful and attractive "public" spaces in LA.

I couldn't get over it when I flew over the city. Overhead, LA looked so bleak... just miles and miles and miles of pavement, with a forested hill here or there. By comparison, all one sees flying over my own city is rivers and parks.

If the greater Orlando area is anything like LA, then I can understand why kids would want to just hang out there. It's probably among the only attractive, well-kept, park-like places available to them. Unfortunately, they were caught up in the unfortunate fact that as private property has overtaken the community commons, the new congregating spaces are not actually public. Shopping malls and entertainment districts have occupied the roles formerly held by public parks and the town square, but they are privately owned and therefore subject to the whims of the landowners.

Were these youth profiled? Of course they were. They were profiled for being kids, they were profiled for being black, they were profiled for their potential to be "undesirables" in a place designed for people to "just chill" for hours on end. Downtown Disney wants people to hang around for as long as they can keep them there. That's just a core rule of marketing: the longer you can keep people there, the more likely they are to buy more things. Disney just didn't want these guys hanging around.

Like dress codes at a nightclub, the actual administering of the rules is subjective... We can't know exactly why these kids were profiled until the guards who did it fess up. But it wasn't simply because they were loitering, or else the security guards would have to kick out anyone and everyone who overstayed their officially designated timeframe for being present on the property. I suspect that isn't going to happen to that family of European tourists to the right though.

Should they have lipped off to the guards? No, but it wouldn't surprise me if they knew they had a lost cause the moment the guards started trailing them. I don't think, however, that Disney is blameless in all things either.

[Tom Morrow]

Disney reverses 4 teens' lifetime ban




Disney reverses 4 teens' lifetime ban (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-disney2907jun29,0,5458100.story?)
Orlando Sentinel - FL

The four Florida State University football prospects who were kicked out of Downtown Disney for loitering last week and banned for life from Walt Disney World can now come back. Disney World announced Thursday that it has decided to reduce the sanctions against the four high-schoolers, whose banishment last weekend amplified a controversy about Disney's recent efforts to reduce teen loitering and sparked accusations of racial profiling. All four of the students are 17 years old and black.

Disney officials, after talking with the mother of one of the teens, decided to revise the trespass warnings so that the four are banned only from Downtown Disney - not from the theme parks, water parks or other parts of Disney World. And the Downtown Disney ban will last only for one year, not a lifetime. That means that, shortly after they are ready to graduate from high school next spring - they'll all be seniors this fall - the ban will be lifted entirely.

But the families of the teens were uncertain Thursday how to respond to Disney's decision. One parent said they would discuss it and get back to Disney today. "We were hoping they would lift the ban entirely. We felt like they shouldn't have been banned at all. We also wanted an apology," said Mark Nugent, stepfather of Vincent Williams, a football star at Ridge Community High School in Polk County. "It looks like we're not getting either of those two things."

Disney has not changed its mind about the incident last Friday and is not contemplating an apology, spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said. She also said the move to reduce the sanctions was a final decision by the resort, not an offer.

Polak would not elaborate on what had emerged during discussions with the four teens' families that led Disney World to scale back its sanctions against the students, all of whom have given oral commitments to attend Florida State University in 2008. "Our review of the incident has not changed our determination that the behavior of these four individuals was not appropriate," Polak said.
complete article (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-disney2907jun29,0,5458100.story?)






Sent from Ezra (http://www.visionsfantastic.com/forum/z/Ezra/)

[xfkirsten]

I'm glad to see that Disney is holding their ground, at least partially. I think if they were to give in here, it would set a nasty precedent that anyone else banned would use as an argument.

[CoryTheRaven]

I'm sure the prescedent would only work if the banned individual had a parent that worked in Walt Disney management.

[tomserwin]

I say the kids and the parents should suck it up. Disney only gave them a slap on the wrist. I wouldn't apologize either.

[dionnemay]

*sigh* This case already exists because of stupidity, and now it's going to get even stupider.

First let me voice my concerns over the racial aspect of this particular story and how that pertains to our discussion here. Let's all just do what we can to keep things civil, eh?

Secondly this racial profiling excuse is totally bogus. WDW property has rules, just like any other place that is privately owned. When you fail to obey those rules and security employed by the ownership enforces the consequences, they have a reason, in this case, loitering. And if you defy the security, as the Disney spokeswoman claims, then you're just asking for more consequences to come down on you. In this case, it was a ban for life. Owners of private property ALWAYS have the right to refuse service and/or ban from their premises whoever they deem fit to eject.



They didn't let them go because they were caught loitering, a violation of FL state law, and they refused to comply with the security officers. 'Being a gangbanger' is no grounds for anyone to be held, but breaking a law is. This man needs to brush up on what's an arrestable offense, and what isn't. They weren't arrested because they looked like gangbangers, they were held because they were loitering. So they weren't released upon discovery that they weren't gangbangers because that's not why they were held. Why that's hard to understand, I'm not sure.



I've bolded exactly why they were caught for loitering and then why they were processed and ejected from the premises.

Security's giving them every out in the world and these teens are shoving it back in the security's collective faces. Now how dumb is that? And now the parents think there's racial motives for the ejection? Give me a break. If the security really was racially motivated, they wouldn't have even given the group the chance to go the movie. Such a ridculous claim.



This guy's an attorney? Wow. I sure wouldn't hire him. First of all, he operates on the pre-conceived notion that the security officers (whom I guess we're led to believe are white although their race isn't mentioned) are racially motivated and not there to enforce DtD Rules & Reg's, even though they are. Secondly, they were ejected for loitering, not trespassing. Third, and this makes me chuckle, they weren't ejected for 'walking around', they weren't moving at all, which is the basic definiton of loitering. Frankly, I'd expect more common sense from a lawyer to know what is and what isn't.

Now as for the rest of the article...



So this is relevant...why? I really hope this isn't the author trying to spin facts to paint the security officers as racial profilers. This is circumstantial statistics in its pure form. It wouldn't stand up in a court, so why should it have any grounds in the court of public opinions? Could this have happened because the ones committing ban-worth offenses happened to be members of those races? I mean come on, unless there's some evidence of unequal treatment, which the article cites none of, pointing out stats like that is unproductive and makes me wonder about the motives of both the author and the Orlando Sentinel itself.



Stupid moves here. If they went to the movies, no problems, but instead they chose to mouth off at the security. Mouthing off at any authority never ends well for the one(s) doing the mouthing off.



Well of course they'd say something like that. Because they say it hardly makes it true. They're the ones facing consequences, and no one likes facing consequences, so they're acting like children trying to talk their way out of it. In the process unfortuantely by screaming race race race, they're going to do a lot more damage to themselves and possibly others related in the case than what would have happened had they just done what the security guards told them to do. But no, that wasn't good enough, they had show their macho-ness and defy security, and that almost always ends badly.

Just goes to show ya, Forrest Gump was right, stupid is as stupid does.

-- PMM :cool:
I've been to disney many times. I LOVE it. My two small kids 10 & 7 went for the first time last year with me. They loved it too. One thing I like about disney parks is that it has a certain feeling of security that you don't get at other amuesment parks. Thier security is dead in and they are always on the ball. They are quick to dispatch a potential problem so we can enjoy our vacation. Places like six flags are full of gang bangers and rowdy people messing it up for everyone else. I don't have to worry about my kids even in a place so crowed because of Disney's awesome security. BTW, I'm black and I am always treated like a queen. There are so many ethnic groups and diverse lifestyles there, it seems absurd to acuse tem of racism. Micheal Moore(the white film maker)was also banned for life when he did'nt leave the property after security told him to.

[Pecos]

Awesome job DTD security. Keep up the good work.

[disneyfreak59]

well those kids must have done something wrong too. I go to downtown disney [[and wdw for that matter]] a lot, and there's always gonna be a group of teens hanging out in one place. and the only time I see the security react to these groups of kids [[ANY race btw]] is if they're disturbing other guests who are walking by or of they are causing a havic (sp?) in a certain area. Yes, disney security do keep a very close eye on loitering groups but they wouldn't just assume that they are gang bangers and ban them for life. These kids probably did something wrong, and when disney security tried to talk to them about just leaving for the night, they didn't cooporate. If they had just cooperated with security for the night none of that would have happened. Disney security is doing the right thing.

[CoryTheRaven]

well those kids must have done something wrong too.

I may be cynical or I've just worked in retail too long, but that doesn't follow. People who haven't done anything are frequently singled out and removed from malls, stores, properties, etc. simply because they match an "undesirable" profile.

[disneyfreak59]

^it's just my opinion. I don't think wdw security takes any joy in banning people for life from any disney property. I really don't think they'd like to jeopardize their job by just banning people of certain sterotypes or race for just standing around. These kids probably (again my opinion and thinking) did something they shouldn't have done. Disney just isn't gonig to ban someone from for standing around. If anything they'd approach them and ask them to leave. But these guys didn't cooperate. Being banned for life at a disney property is a big thing, and something security probably doesnt like to do.

again, my opinion :)

[xfkirsten]

I'm sure the prescedent would only work if the banned individual had a parent that worked in Walt Disney management.

Oh, I didn't say it would work, I said they'd try it. It would be a great annoyance to all involved. ;)

My feeling is that once you say someone is banned, you need to hold your ground unless it's absolutely clear that a mistake has been made. If you relent, that sends a signal to everyone else who's been busted that if they put up a scene, their punishment will be revoked, too. It's an authority thing. I was a basketball ref for awhile in college, too, and you go by the same rules. Even if you realize you made a bad call, you stand by it firmly, lest you lose authority.

[Tom Morrow]

Teens get message amid heavy enforcement




Disney after dark (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-disney0107jul01,0,426155.story)
Teens get message amid heavy enforcement
Orlando Sentinel - FL

Friday night unfolded across Downtown Disney without a repeat of the security crackdown on young males that had prompted accusations of racial profiling. Results of that effort already may be apparent, although it was difficult to tell whether fewer bands of rowdy teens and adults were carousing the shopping and entertainment area, or whether security had become more selective.

Unlike the two previous weekends, no one was expelled and banished from returning to Disney. The company and the Orange County Sheriff's Office reported seeing virtually none of the "ganglike presence" or rowdy loitering youth they said had been increasing at Downtown Disney.

"We kicked off the weekend problem-free," Disney spokeswoman Jacquee Polak said. "I think each week we're seeing fewer problems, and as far as I can tell this security presence is having the impact we hoped it would have."

Also apparent was a far more visible law-enforcement presence throughout much of the nightlife side of the resort known as the Happiest Place on Earth. A special detail of 15 off-duty deputies has bolstered dozens of Disney and other private-security officers to watch over the thousands of visitors who wander the three-quarter-mile stretch of show venues, theaters, clubs, restaurants and shops.

From House of Blues at the far-west corner of Downtown Disney to the bridge leading east out of Pleasure Island, armed deputies, uniformed Disney security and plainclothes security officers, usually in clusters of two or more, could be seen every few dozen yards Friday night.
complete article (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-disney0107jul01,0,426155.story)



Sent from Ezra (http://www.visionsfantastic.com/forum/z/Ezra/)

[SeguirAsentadoPorFavor]

Disneyworld is a fantastic place, its not like they said

"Hey are those kids black?"

"Yes"

"Well what are we waiting for?"

They must have done something wrong. Its sad to see how reverse racism can be almost as ignorant as racism.